Magic Dee of the Devastating 3

By Troy L. Smith

Winter of 2007

Let’s talk about that famous summer night in Harlem 1984 where Rob Base went against M.C. Holiday. Also Mike Cee of the Fearless Four got on the mic along with Doug E. Fresh, Kid West and you. That is a popular tape (Tape 119.) among the live shows from back in the days. You were there first hand; in fact you got on the mic and slayed it with your Polly Molly Rhyme. Now I know nobody knew it was going to be a battle between Rob Base and Holiday but can you please reflect on that night!

Well with those individuals rhyming there was always a structure in hip-hop. When the Crash Crew who was the first group out of the projects would get on the mic everybody under them didn’t! Everybody who thought they were m.c.s and thought they were nice, well the torch had to be passed. You had to have an invitation in order to get on. It went from Mike and Dave and the Crash Crew to the Boogie Boys. The Boogie Boys gave us the opportunity to not really rock the mic but they were the ones ahead of us in reference to our opportunity. And behind us was Rob Base and his crew.

So Mike and Dave had a tradition of coming out in the park and what they normally did in that was  the d.j. played music for a period of time, everybody partied and we put on a show at a certain time period. And its funny because the person who would be on the mic in the early days all through out the course of them playing music and dancing was Mike Cee and this was before he was called EK Mike Cee! At that time he was just called Mike Cee but he always used to say this phrase “Everybody knows, everybody knows girls because everybody knows Mike Cee!” The EK stuck because he was perpetually on the mic during the course of the time before they went into their show.

So at that particular incident with Rob Base and Holiday, we were going to perform so we knew to all come together at a certain time period because it would be our time. Let me take you back to those early mornings seeing if we were going to rock later on that day. See we would go over to Mix Master Mike’s house early and Mix Master Mike lived on the Madison Avenue side and we would go and see him and say “yo Mike what’s up are we coming out today?” He might say “nah I don’t want to come out” etc etc.

Mix Master Mike always had the equipment at his house?

Yeah always, see what people might not have mentioned was Mike and Dave were the top promoters for the city and not just in Harlem and Manhattan. From Mike and Dave other individuals came. So by Mike and Dave having their own equipment they didn’t need to rent or borrow equipment from any one. They would just go to a place set their equipment up and boom it was done. They had the famous Mace Monster speakers built by this kid name Mace, one of Disco Dave’s close friends. So we would go to Mix Master Mike and try and convince him to come out. When we got the o.k. we would usually come out around one or two in the afternoon and set up everything. We would be ready to rock and roll about 3 to 4pm and we would start playing music.

People would gather and once it got dusk that’s when emcees started rhyming. Cats would get on early because the better cats would get on later on, and they would not let you on. We went through our time period were we couldn’t get on. With that particular day Mike Cee and Doug E. Fresh were hanging out. We spoke to Doug earlier and said we rocking tonight, what’s up come through! So when Doug came through Mike Cee of the Fearless Four happen to be with him. We knew of the Fearless Four, we were very close with Tito. Tito is a good brother in fact he use to come through occasionally and rhyme with us, I believe you have some tapes with him.

Yes I do have a couple with you guys rocking with him.

Tito was the first of the Fearless to rock with us. So we had a great relationship with Tito and Mike Cee later on. But that particular day the younger cats got on and did their thing then we came and we did our thing. And the younger cats to us would be Rob Base and Easy Rock and their group. Now with Rob Base and Easy Rock their was a chick name Yvonne aka Vonnie Gee that rhymed with them and I believe Holiday was in the group and that was the conflict that arouse that day. I think Holiday, Vonnie Gee, and Rob were all in a group together for a little while. Vonnie Gee was from River Ben (River Ben was in back of Riverton and Riverton was across the street from Lincoln Projects, home of the Crash Crew, Boogie Boys, Devastating 3 and Rob Base.) and Holiday was from St. Nicholas Projects. (In Harlem as well on 127^th street to 131^st street, from 8^th avenue to 7^th avenue. Lincoln projects are on 135^th street to 133^rd street from 5^th avenue to Park Avenue.) I think they got into some sort of dispute about the group and Holiday wanted to battle.

So did ya’ll know it was going to be a battle before ya’ll got out there because I thought it was like a walk on battle or something.

Not really, but first of all Rob was better then Holiday so we never expected Holiday to bring it to him. There was a conversation before they got on the mic. It must have been something brewing that we knew nothing about but I was a witness to what transpired before they got on the mic. It was one of those “yo you suppose to be down with us” and so forth and so on type of conversation. It was unrehearsed and not expected.

Rob Base put it on him real fast!

We were fortunate enough to have the Boogie Boys and Mike Cee showed us repetitiously how to do this and entertain. Then Rob Base also had us because he was always around us and he had the benefit of seeing m.c.s that were more experienced. Now what we did that particular night was always what we did when we came out. We use to do it like twice a month during the months of June, July and August, and into September.

No beefs coming to the outside jams?

No fortunately Lincoln Projects was crazy, cats were not coming into Lincoln to start no mess. But they had to come to Lincoln to enjoy them selves. There were very few street problems when we played music at that particular time. Cigar Mob was in there but we had a good relationship with them and they felt this was their territory and nobody was going to come up in there and start anything. So for us that was a benefit.

When did you first hear hip-hop?

When we were growing up we would be playing in Lincoln Park and Mike and Dave and them would be practicing up in the house harmonizing. It was like 1978 or 79. It was about 7 guys up there. It was Mike, Dave, Shue Bee, EK Mike Cee, Reggie Reg, Barry B- Stro and Fly Guy. G- Man wasn’t down at that time. Fly Guy later on I think just didn’t want it. See we would be downstairs playing skellies or low dees…

Loved the game as a child.

Exactly, so they were upstairs and I believe Dance to The Drummers Beat might have been out. This time zone was pre records, before groups made 12 inches. And just to speak on that, back then when it went from that process of the actual d.j. hosting a party to the emcee hosting the party and the d.j. playing the music. To the next phase of that was the parody phase. I call that the parody phase, which was basically groups getting together harmonizing, singing parody’s of other familiar songs by changing the words. Cold Crush was real famous for doing that, Force M.C,s as well. Most of the cats were famous for doing that and that was what the Crash Crew was doing at the time. So we would be downstairs hearing them wondering what they were doing and then they came down stairs and did what they were doing up stairs and the girls would go crazy. I seen how the girls were reacting and I said I want in. My first group was just Kid West and me. Kid West’s first emcee name was Ivan Putski at that time.

  Home boy the wrestler, Mr. Polish Power? My man!

  Right. (Dee is laughing.)

  Alright where were you and Ivan aka Kid West born and raised?

Lincoln Projects (135^th street and 5^th,  Madison and Park Avenues.) I was born in New York hospital down on 70^th street and York Avenue. I went to p.s. 197 for 1^st and 2^nd grade located on 135^th and 5^th avenue, across the street from Lincoln projects. I went to St Mark’s catholic school for the 3^rd grade and that is where Kid West went. Also Ivan lived in the next building from me in Lincoln. Baby Flash and Barry Bee of the group also lived in Lincoln. All three of us lived on the 5^th  and  Madison Avenue side; Barry lived on the Madison, Park Avenue side. My grand parents lived on the Madison park side so on weekends I would always be over there. At that time there was a difference. The two sides of Lincoln projects always considered each other separate from each other, but once there was trouble from say other projects or some one from outside trying to be a problem then we became one project.

Well we had the same situation over in the Grant Projects; in fact we called each other “The Other Side!”

I guess that’s universal. It wasn’t one until you were talking s--- about it. (Dee is laughing.)

Now back during that time the side where your grand parents lived was that side a more lethal side then the other with the gang members such as the Cigar Mob etc.

Yes at that time. But it goes from one side to the other. It gets more gangster on one side, then they die out or go to jail what ever the case may be, then the other side gets gangster. So at that particular time that side was more gangster and that side had the majority of leaders from the Cigar Mob. I was told by my parents that the Ali Baba and the 40 thieves was a prevalent gang in the projects. But you also had a lot of brothers that were stick up kids. I later went on to Cardinal Hayes high school and Big Face Gary from Roc a fella went there, a real good brother. Also Mel Quan the first manager for the RZA and the GZA. Biz didn’t go to school with me but we became very cool with each other from him coming around Lincoln back in the days.

 His father had a disco in Long Island and Mike and Dave booked some shows there and Biz loved hip hop and got involved some how. His way in was through Mike and Dave. Whenever Mike and Dave did something he was around, Biz gave out flyers, Biz did a lot of things. Mike and Dave was a major outlet for a lot of brothers in the early stages of hip-hop. I later went to Purchase New York College. Now with the Crash Crew they made them selves very visible in the neighborhood. They were a group of guys that hung out in front of the bank. They didn’t hang out on the corner they hung out in front of the bank on 135^th street and 5^th avenue. Opposite the Lincoln park basketball courts. I don’t know if it was conscious or unconscious to be in front of the bank but that is were they resided and this would be after bank hours.

  Were they big on the weed and beer at that time?

Not at all, they were about girls and teasing each other by snapping on each other. That is what I saw from them basically. By us seeing how the block was reacting to them when they got on the mic we felt we could do that.  Kid West put together two separate potable record players and he was the d.j. and I would be on the mic trying to get people to listen because we would put the speaker out the window.

Yeah I used to love those days.

The problem was nobody could really hear us because we only did it when Mike and Dave came outside. And their system was so loud. You can actually hear Mike and Dave in the projects from the train station on Lenox avenue, even as far up as the YMCA on 7^th avenue. From 7^th avenue you could hear the Mace Monsters. (2 long city blocks)The system they had was very serious. When we started our group it was myself, West, Adrian aka Kelly Dee and Fella whose name was Fell Rock Cee.

That’s my little man, he used to go to Brandies high school with me back in the days. He was nice on the basketball court.

Right, he definitely loved some ball. Now me and West were fortunate enough to grow up in the time period where all the kids that grew up together in the neighborhood played together we stuck together we done things together and so there would be about 15 plus of us and we played baseball. Well one of the guys that played baseball with us was Von Jeter. Jeter was younger than us by maybe two years. He started rhyming with us also.

Then there was this kid from the other side of Lincoln who we heard could rhyme and he was going to battle West. It never happened but cats were saying we should put Barry down with us because he was nice with his. So he came over to rhyme. And I have to say Barry had all the rhymes in the world. Barry was writing so much material at that time that he basically wrote all of our material during our parody stage. By this time West started to come up with these 12 to 16 verses that weren’t really verses but things that were fitting in. He would say four bars of something and then another 4 bars of something else. It was just random things but he would put them together and they seemed to fit. Our first group was called the Disco Enforcers.

That name was used by these other two d.j.s that ran with the Cold Crush for a minute.

Right, when we found out there was another group called the Disco Enforces we changed the name to Baby Flash and the Devastating 3. Barry was the emcee at this time and Von Jeter was Baby Flash at the time. But Barry who was so into the culture did hip-hop everyday. If he wasn’t writing rhymes he was learning how to d.j. so he became a better d.j. than Von. Barry also had equipment. West got a Numark mixer for Christmas and he ended up giving it to Barry, Barry ended up being the lead d.j. And Von is now an emcee. The crew way later on changed the name to The Most Crew and that name came from my cousin and his homeboy George who was down with the Gestapo Crew and they went to college upstate also and they called them selves the Most crew and I adopted that name for my boys later. But that would be after I left for college. And you have to understand hip-hop was always changing.

Right as time went on they dropped off the numbers next to their crew name.

Exactly so instead of calling out selves Devastating 3 we called our selves The Most Crew.

As far as Barry Bee being an emcee was he nice on the mic?

No, Barry had a nasal voice. Barry was also a shy brother, but like I said Barry knew all the routines and he wrote everything. Most cats that had the tapes when we were growing up thought I was West because I was more out front. But to me Kid West was the man.

Now how did the relationship between you Mike and Dave flourish?

Mike and Dave made their first record with the Crash Crew independently. I believe based upon the way they did some things they made some decent money off of this independent project. Mike figured he could do it again. By this time the Crash Crew was gone as well as The Boogie Boys. The only thing Mike had left was a bunch of these young cats still around him still asking him to come out and play music. You had Rob Base, E.Z. Rock, Doug, Barry and West and I.

So what did the Lincoln Projects and the streets say about Crash separating from Mike and Dave and going to Sugar Hill Records?

We were very proud. But I am sure Mike and Dave were not happy with the situation. There were rumors that the Crash Crew’s emcees were not happy with Mike and Dave management.  And maybe Mix Master Mike didn’t know the business as much as he should have and he had the opportunity to be a Russell Simmons, because he had a lot of talent in his camp. As a matter of fact Russell Simmons used to come to Mike and Dave jams back in the days.

So it was always just Mike and Dave?

Just Mike and Dave!

Well give me a picture of Mike and Dave looking from the inside.

Mike was very quiet and he wore glasses. Dave was not quiet. (Dee laughs) Dave was the younger brother who was very outspoken and he took up martial arts. Dave was out front and he took no s--- and did what he had to do. I am quite sure at times it was difficult for him and his brother because it was just them. Thinking about it now being grown up and knowing what it takes to get in the game and having somebody have your back, yeah they were brothers that looked out for each other. I think Mike at the time worked at a record company, plant. I know he was doing something in the business. Once the Crash Crew left, Mike and Dave put out the Boogie Boys record. Then the Boogie Boys left and it was us. Then RUN DMC dropped Sucker M.C.s.

Changed the sound.

Right, the sound changed because you had better quality so Mike tried to do a collaboration record, which is the record we made called Fast Money! He tried to do it the same way he made it previously with The Crash Crew not realizing they had practiced a lot before they went into the studio. He wanted us to go into the studio and do it in one take! Do it and get it done. Mike was paying but he didn’t want to pay but so much. So he gave everybody a set amount of time and we did what we did but I was never happy with the record personally because it was done in one take. I knew that it could have been done better. Also you must remember Sweetie Gee who was down also was from Queens and anytime Mike and Dave wanted to do parties in Queens they hooked up with Sweetie Gee. On that album we did with Mike and Dave there was other groups on there and their names were Positive K, Sweetie Gee, and Rob Base. Sugar Rock and Sugar Love were on there too. Disco Dave was on there also and he rhymed to the original version of I know you Got Soul, but a real slow version of that. Also Connect Four was on there. The name of the Production was Fast Money.

Anybody ever try and bring it to you and Kid West on some battling?

Yes D.J. Pernellie O from St. Nicholas projects. Pernellie and his brother Paris aka Disco P were the d.j.s. They were known as the P Brothers along with Kid Divine who was a real good emcee and his man that passed away when we were young.(Kid Finesse.) Pernellie O rhymed but was a better d.j. Every party we were at they were at. There weren’t any real battles between us though even if they might have hinted around the subject. It would be kind of hard for any one to battle us any way and here is why. Doug E. Fresh was basically with us, he rhymed every time we preformed. Salt and Pepper came out with their record and Mike and Dave booked them for a show with us at a show at I.S. 201 and they were getting booed to death because they made that cut Show Stoppers dissing Doug.

  So they were just getting booed and booed, and I had to get up there and ask the crowd to give these girls a chance and the girls did their thing. But back then if anybody wanted to battle us, you have to remember they were coming to our place because Mike and Dave were the only party promoters in town. Cats had to really be on their A game plus it was a transition in hip-hop that wasn’t stable for battle purposes. Cats weren’t doing 16’s they were doing parody routines. This was still during the time cats were doing groups and routines.

So what about cats coming from Drew Hamilton, (141^st. street to 144^th street from 7^th avenue to 8^th avenue The Disco Four and Master Don and them coming from above 145^th street closer to the eastside?

The only one for us who had repeat shine or any kind of recognition was Master Don and Def Committee. Don and his crew got shine because Mike and Master Don had a business arrangement.  I know they had some type of arrangement because Mike didn’t cater to too many people at all and definitely gave some extra props to Don. So you always saw them in 201 or the Y back in the days when it was a Mike and Dave party.

What about the Disco Four?

Well they were more in the Crash Crew era, they were older then us and they were in that competitive era along with Cold Crush, Fantastic Romantic all of those cats were in the same class or era.

What about the Force M.D.s how did ya’ll get so cool with them?

Well one night we were doing a show at P.A.L. over on 123^rd street and 8^th avenue. It was a Mike and Dave show and this was the night the Crash Crew was throwing chicken bones at us. We were young and nervous but nobody knew that they were throwing chicken bones at us and they weren’t throwing bones at us because they thought we were wack. They were throwing them at us to f--- with us because they knew us. They was like “ya’ll getting paid the same as us, get the f--- out of here!” So they made it difficult on us, you know big brother hazing s---. We just so happen to have a routine “it ain’t no thing but a chicken wing.” So West picks up the chicken wing rapping “it ain’t no thing!”

We got the crowd and it was lovely. We were on top of the world, a beautiful thing. But on that particular night the guess group that were suppose to come didn’t show up and it happen to be the Force M.C.s. which at that time was just Mercury and Stevie Dee.  Just the two of them and the D.J.. So close to the end of the party they still weren’t there. All of a sudden Stevie Dee shows up with two other dudes and they were trying to convince Mix Master to hit them off because they went through a lot just to get there! One of the brothers that was with them was Jesse that would later be part of the singing group Force M.D.s. So Jesse puts on this show were he does the Michael Jackson’s routines such as Billie Jean, Beat it and others which was the same act that they did on the Ferry. He even said it in his skit that he performed on the Staten Island Ferry. The guy was so talented, I will never for get that night. We got real cool with them brothers after that.

What were the places Mike and Dave frequent as far as hosting parties?

Mike had different spots that they threw jams at regularly. Randy’s Place, Old Terrace Ballroom, 201, YMCA and these were spots in Manhattan. Then he had a spot in Long Island that he threw regularly and a couple of spots in Queens and Brooklyn that he threw also.

What was the best outside jam for you back in the days?

The best night I can remember was when we were at Lincoln Projects Park and the Crash Crew were rocking but then we heard somebody was throwing a jam over in St. Nicholas Park. Over in St. Nick I saw D.j. Break Out and The Funky 4 and that was when Rahiem was down with them. But what I remember most was Sha Rock. It was a girl rhyming and it was crazy because they were doing what they were doing on the same level as what I was seeing the guys who I thought were the best doing it, and that was the Crash Crew. Plus Mele Mel was there and he killed it. But the Funky Four did a show and I am talking about routines right before my eyes. Seeing the Crash Crew was normal but this was like for me my first big hip hop event. Seeing Sha Rock was something I never expected to see. I was like “wow”. It also convinced me that we could do it. 

Right I see. Let’s talk about your man Kid West. I heard that he was so nice that he was almost a member of the Fearless Four!

I don’t remember which member of the Four but I think it was D.L.B. He stopped rhyming or something like that. They wanted a replacement and West was the best to replace him and the most likely to replace him was West because he was the best out there and I guess through Doug they mentioned it and Doug let West know. I don’t know what happened and why it didn’t happen.

Now with Doug was he ever a member of Devastating 3 and if not why did he have such an interest in your crew?

No and from what I remember in reference to that when we were coming up we were doing those parody routines and our voices complemented each other and West would do these four bars of any thing and then another four bars of something else and he never wrote anything down. We would be walking and talking and from our conversation he would pick something out from the conversation and he would put that in the rhymes. By the end of the day he has like a whole rhyme. Some times it would take two or three days.

Now I could never do that I would have to write stuff down. In the early days when Barry stop writing the routines I started writing them. So I started coming up with the parody routines towards the tape era were you have a lot of the going away to college tapes. We would do the singing in 3 parts. There are the very first early routines that we have ever done the next group of routines and then the final group of routines. They basically went through time periods. From the one’s that Barry and us wrote together. Then the majority of the ones I wrote. So after we would say these routines both of us would say a rhyme of our own. So eventually he would say 6 or 7 rhymes and I would say my same two or three rhymes. (Dee starts laughing.)

You a funny dude!

But it was the truth. I am saying the same two rhymes and West is saying these new rhymes and Von is saying his one or two rhymes but we got the routines and it became repetitious. Now Barry like I said was straight hip-hop out of all of us he would be the only one outside of the projects while we stayed on the inside.

As quiet as this guy is he still was the one all over the place!

Right, he was outside the projects all over the place and he was truly into the culture so he would meet cats and he met Doug, how I don’t know but they became cool and Doug came to the house. We were out Von Jeter’s house when we first met him. It was a real tense situation.

Why was that?

Because it was a new emcee and we were considered nice and at the top of the mountain so to speak and Barry brings in this dude and we like “come on who is this n----- and why?!”

So Doug wasn’t even known to you guys yet?

Didn’t know him

So I guess he was doing all the West side jams. And Doug is from my side of town and he was always putting in work and I guess you guys being on the east side didn’t get wind of him until that day.

Right and see he wasn’t doing the beat box when he got to us. This is pre beat box! He was Dougie Dee and he rhymed. When he first came to the house `he rhymed and then Von said a rhyme and that was because he was the less of the 3 of us then Doug then me and then Doug again and then West. When Doug left we sat and talk and we was like he is all right no big deal but he came back and he just kept coming back. From there we started hanging and chilling. Then one day he said I want to show ya’ll something that I can do and he started doing the beat box! So by now when he does this we are all closer so we don’t clown him but we make light of it. Doug kept it on the low and got real good at it. Doug came back and did it again and this time he was very good with it because he can now play certain records. But there was this certain record that he couldn’t play and that was Numbers by Kraftwerk.   He couldn’t play it for s---. We use to f--- with him and say play numbers for us because we knew he couldn’t play it. Just playing that big brother little brother thing but eventually he got it. And once he got Numbers there was no turning back.

So Doug never was a member of the group but he always played with ya’ll?

Right, he was an official member but Doug was a soloist and he always wanted to be a soloist. Doug patterned his skits for a soloist. He did crowd control, he did the beat box and he said rhymes, but by him being around us he was then writing routines. Not writing routines for every one but for him self. He started writing songs and that was because of his dealings with us. See we were doing parodies but we were doing parodies in song writing mode. We would do a routine then say a 16 and then come back with a routine and then 16 again and so on and so forth. So Doug picked up that and then he picked up the individual rhyming stuff. Doug did a lot of writing where as West didn’t and I tried. (Dee laughs.) So as time goes by Doug kept it going and me and West went on to College. Doug I think got his first deal with Enjoy.

Was Doug and Barry very close?

Yes, Barry and Doug were very close. I think West and me were raised very differently we were very much protected by our families. I lost my father when I was young so my grand parents were over protective of me and they would not let me leave the projects growing up. Plus it was always safer in Lincoln then it was outside of Lincoln! Mother f-----s went every place else and did dirt. So West and my self never really ventured out too much from the projects. But Barry did and Doug grew up on the west side next to you. So when we left they naturally started hanging out with each other and started doing parties everywhere.

They were everywhere doing parties and shows. So when West and I came back from school they were full fledged into this partying thing. So now West and I are back into it and Biz Markie comes at us and he wants us to do a record. He gave West and me $25,000 to split. With Biz contract we had on the album Grand Daddy I. U. , Pebbley Poo, Diamond Shell and Kid Capri. The first person that dropped under Biz was Grand Daddy I.U. He did that joint Something New. After him the Kid Capri dropped. And after him Diamond Shell and then after him it was supposed to be us. Biz was dropping his second album and that was where he got into trouble for that Alone Again sample. That took his album off the market which stopped the production process for what they were doing with us. We did about 8 records with Biz.

Do you still have the recordings?

I don’t, but West does.

You know we got to do some trading after this interview!

No doubt. We also went into the studio with Doug and did a couple of recordings but nothing came of it. In fact there was one record we recorded that would have been a great record, which was a beat box record and he also played the harmonica and we were doing a routine and it was hot.

So he rocked the harmonica and the human beat box on this record?

Yes, it was special. I don’t know if he still has the tapes but it is something very special.

So why didn’t it go through?

I don’t know you would have to ask Doug that!

So I am sure ya’ll questioned it at that time.

At that time it definitely was a mystery about why things turned out the way they did but by that time it wasn’t that serious to West any more as it was to me.

O.k

Like I still do hip-hop to this day. I am still involved with the culture as West is not at all today. With me I didn’t care what it was as long as it is hip-hop I was getting involved. If I was rhyming or some one else was rhyming, what ever the case may be. In the case of Doug’s situation some of the things got used but he used them.

So was this with Enjoy when ya’ll did this with Doug?

No but it was before Slick Rick.

Right

Probably around the time of Just having Fun and the Human Beat Box.

How did you and Slick Rick meet?

Well I was still kind of fresh off of coming back from college and Doug is now growing as a star.  One day me Doug and Barry were hanging out and Doug said let’s take a ride up to the Roof Top because he wanted me to meet this cat that he saw up there that rhymed and he was nice.

And this is somewhat your first time at Roof Top?

Right and at this time like I said all the attention is on Doug and I am hanging with the star. So I am just playing my position up in the Roof Top! Because I am looking around watching and seeing and trying to see what the hell is going on. Because I notice this is an uncomfortable environment for me because I have never been here before. (We both start laughing.) I am out of my element right now. I am so use to a Mike and Dave situation and how that goes you are back stage and you are not out with the audience. So now you are at this real popular jeweled out, thuged out setting and of course there were beautiful girls and it wasn’t like I was nervous or uncomfortable it was just different and you had to approach it differently. Plus I wanted to meet this kid Doug was talking about. So I met Rick and he was a cool dude and we hung out. We stayed a little while. Doug preformed that night also. So after that we started doing shows with Slick.  West is gone by this time and as a soloist I just wasn’t up to my standards and I have to say I was very uncomfortable. And what maybe what I should have done but I wouldn’t, was say West’s rhymes. But I just couldn’t bring my self to do that.

Still no biting going on!

Exactly, cats do it now but I couldn’t bring my self to say West’s rhymes, which would have fitted perfectly for the setting that I was in. West had those pressure straight to the point, punch line rhymes. I didn’t do well but needless to say Rick would come on right after me, and bong he would kill them. Eventually I stopped performing all together. That was the end of my performing period and Doug and Rick took off. 

Before you left the crew did you see before your eyes that Doug and Rick were cool with each other before Rick broke out?

They were friends. Doug was my friend of course and Rick became my friend.

So is there a story behind why they broke up?

I really don’t know but it is probably like anybody else, money, recognition. A number of different things, what it was exactly I couldn’t tell you. But I am under the assumption that’s what it was. I guess mostly recognition, like “I want the same billing as you.” “It’s me and you out front, I am not a member of the group. I’m Slick Rick!”

I got you. The Get Fresh Crew, Doug E. Fresh and The Get Fresh Crew. In fact Chill Will wasn’t even down yet am I right?

Nah Chill Will was first.

I didn’t know that, I thought it was the other way around.

Chill Will was with Doug from day one, and that’s my man too.

How cool was Rob Base with you guys as ya’ll were growing up?

Rob was real cool but he was younger than us. But I remember a night at one of the jams where you know your time has not passed you by, but you are not as relevant as you once were before. What had transpired was there was a party at St. Marks, which is Bishop Perry Hall. We were at that party and we performed and did well no problems. Cats knew us and knew about us and they liked us and we got cheers. But now Rob Base gets on after us and he had his record It Takes Two out and it was brand new. It wasn’t even out a whole month yet, but the response was in f---ing credible!

Right I see what you are saying.

I was just like “oh my God I can’t believe this just happened right here” (Dee is laughing.)

So in your honest opinion who was the Baddest m.c. in Harlem after Kool Moe Dee?

West!

(Troy laughs.) As I am walking from work I said to my self he is going to pick Kid West.

There is no way in the world possible I could say any one else. There was no one else I felt had all the intangibles that he had. He had flow, he had word play and he had tone. He stuck out and it didn’t make a difference who he rhymed with he was going to stick out. Plus you could tell when did tapes with other cats that were very hot he still stuck out. I think Tito was very hot and DLB had a stronger punch early on but Tito really embodied trying to be the full fledge emcee in every aspect, with the appearance and flashiness of an emcee.

As well as the way he came across he had the total package. He really stuck out and he was Hispanic so he really stuck out. But he was comfortable the way he stuck out. But to me and this is my opinion West was still just a little bit more pleasant. West would say things, Tito would say things then Doug would rhyme and then me. if a dude is better then you then a dude is better then you! You don’t go around saying that but you know in the back of your mind you say “o.k. that kid got something special” so forth and so on. I just always felt West had something special. Where ever we went and rhymed people said oh s---!

Kid West ain’t that something! Alright we are going to do it like this now. I am going to put the Harlem emcees against each other I would like for you to give me the history of what you remember about the two, and then tell me who would win in a battle between each other! ...O.k. The Mighty Mike Cee of the Fearless Four vs. E.K. Mike Cee of the Crash Crew?

Alright EK Mike Cee, very flashy the pretty boy of the group. Always out front. When I talked to him the other night I said he is on the level of the pretty boys from that era and he is number two on that list behind Kevie Kev. Because nobody had them girls screaming for them the way Kevie Kev did. (Dee is laughing.)

Moe Dee told me the same thing about Kevie Kev, he said Kev wasn’t a giant with the rhymes but chicks loved him to death and he said the same thing about Spoonie Gee.

Right and I didn’t know Kev, I might have seen him a couple of times and heard him many times on the tapes. But I heard and I saw the way the women reacted to EK.

Everybody Knows!

Exactly everybody knows EK Mike Cee. I asked him about that story and he said he kept saying that rhyme “Everybody Knows, Everybody Knows girls because Everybody Knows Mike Cee and he used to say it just like that.” So one day somebody told him it was another Mike Cee, so a chick said to him “you should change your name to EK Mike Cee because you say everybody knows all the dam time.” And it just stuck. Mike stuck out more with the Crash Crew as wanting to be the leader even though to me he wasn’t the best emcee of the group! To me The Mighty Mike Cee of the Fearless Four was more of the John Stockton of the group. He was a great assist man. He wasn’t the best out of the group nor was he the flashiest. And he didn’t have the strongest voice in the group but with him in the group he meshed very well to make all those other parts much better.

Well not for nothing I think Mike of Fearless held his own pretty well because he had some really good rhymes.

Yes. But when you are speaking about the two individuals its impossible for me to characterize them as battling each other individually I would have to look at it from the prospective of the total picture of who they were with in their groups because they never did actually battle. So in that situation EK Mike Cee would win in that battle. That’s just based on the fact that he was a more popular, dramatic type of an individual.

You know Mike Cee of Fearless told me in his interview that he heard about EK Mike Cee before the name EK came into effect. There was a party at the PAL on 123^rd streets in Harlem and when Mike of the Fearless 4 seen EK he took him to the side and told EK they had to battle for the name. EK told him “no we don’t have to because my name is EK.” The Mighty Mike Cee of the Fearless Four said o.k. and the both of them became the coolest of friends after that night. ......Alright next up DLB of the Fearless Four vs. Reggie Reg of The Crash Crew?

That’s a tough one because they are both pretty much the same types of emcees in the confines of their crew. To me DLB was the lead singer. He was the David Ruffin of the group as well as Reggie Reg was for the Crash. Wow that’s a tough one, that’s a real tough one.

I thought you would like this one.

Yes it is, I would have to give the edge to and I mean very slightly to DLB!

That’s good because you are not trying to stay committed to Crash Crew.

I say that because Reg stuck out when he did his verses amongst the Crash Crew. The Crash Crew as a team was not as strong as The Fearless as a team and for DLB to stick out as much as he did in a stronger team gives him that edge. But out of the Crash Crew the person I felt was the best emcee was Reggie Reg.

I thought so too and he had a good voice as well.

Yes he had a great tone as well. And the way he was positioned in the group it was good because when he came in you knew who he was, and it bought some freshness to it. DLB usually kicked s--- off, and by him kicking it off you was automatically interested in hearing the rest of them.

Right

So the slight edge goes to DLB.

L. A. Sunshine vs. G-Man?

L. A. is a very important figure to his team. G-Man became a very important figure in the Crash Crew based on his parody of Rayvon.

Oh you said it! (As Troy jumps out of his seat.) After Rayvon told me this, I waited but nobody repeated what Rayvon said. I said ‘damn he might be right but no one is quoting him.”

(Dee laughs.) That was Rayvons verse, actually Johnny Wa’s. You heard it and I was there.

Rayvon said, “them n----- bitin' my s---!”

They did not bite they absolutely ate! (We both started laughing.) They ate the whole meal.

Well I have to say G-man did a fantastic job with his verses still in all. That last set of rhymes on that album is one of the bangers of all time.(High Powered Rap.)

Yes and that’s why when you say between the two of them its like I needed to explain to you why I was going to pick this other individual because of truth of the matter which is basically that G-mans verse was somebody else’s verse that he just altered.

Well tell me how he altered it?

Well the original verse by Johnny Wa goes,

 “Well it’s E E-Man

 and he’s rocking on,

 and the beat don’t stop until the break off dawn.

The R- A- Y- girl

 the V and O and N

and every letter in his name is the sure shot win.

 And on and on and on and on

and then the beat don’t stop until the break of dawn ha!

 Like wasting your money just driving those cars girl

and hoping to God that you meet Johnny Wa ha ha.”

 That was like Johnny’s Wa’s only thing. (Tape 76.) Now Rayvon might have written it, but when Johnny Wa said that that was his thing. So it’s like the same thing, “when you walking down the street with your box in your hand well its E E Man and it’s rocking on.”

Damn

It’s the same thing.

Yeah I didn’t even realize that. I thought Rayvon was referring to the sing songie way G- Man did it. So he took the lyrics

No he didn’t just take the lyrics he took the melody also.

Right he flipped the melody.

Right he did a parody. Also you have to remember it’s hard for anyone to realize as a youngster how world wide or borough wide a record is compared to you rocking at a party every weekend on tapes. So nobody remembers Johnny Wa or that that was his rhyme. That was his signature song. He did that every where he went and they did it to the same beat.

You right Cheryl Lynne’s “Got To Be Real.”

Right. And that’s the Magnificent 7 (From Harlem.) D.J. Spivey, E Man I don’t know…..

Shoeshine, Cookie

Right see you know because you be having those tapes to say their names

You are exactly right. Now the thing about it is when G man first did that line at say Harlem World or Celebrity Club cats in the crowd screamed stop biting Johnny Wa and Rayvon s---. But then Rayvon said once him and Johnny Wa went to jail, out of site out of mind! Then G- Man rocked the city with that.

Right

So one day before I found out the history of G Man, me and Caz was talking and I said “after Caz Mel and Moe Dee the next King would be between Dota Rock and G- Man.” Caz burst out “Dot would eat G-man, people keep living off that one rhyme G- Man did. Dot would eat him up.” I was caught off guard because I made a terrible mistake from off one fly ass rhyme.

He’s right because G man didn’t have any rhymes.

At the time I didn’t know. See I didn’t know all the history from you guys on the East side especially pertaining to him, being as I am on the West side. I knew about Reg and them but I didn’t know fully about G Man.

And like I said Fly Guy was an original member of the Crash Crew, G man came to the Group after Fly guy left.

All right now what about your man L.A. Sunshine who Moe said even though his lyrics weren’t as intricate as Moe and Special K but he had more energy or showmanship so he was very important to the group. So between the two, L.A. and G Man who would you put your money on?

Well it’s an easy land slide. L.A. was a character that bought flavor. Also he was more outspoken, “I want to be the best n----- in the group” type dude and he had a lot of drive. I didn’t personally know these guys nor hung around them but Moe Dee is my favorite artist and later on in life me and Moe Dee became great friends. But L.A. was a character and had this drive and was and felt he was just going to get in it no matter how it was, oppose to a person who said some one else’s rhymes, and no disrespect to G Man. But he came into the group when they weren’t together that long but it was a very prosperous time and who ever came up with the idea saying Johnny Wa’s part and changing the words to it was a genius because it fooled every one into believing G man was a vital important member to the hip hop community in that matter that you spoke of him of. As being somebody that had to have been very creative to come up with that. You know what I am saying, when it wasn’t very creative. And G- Man was on all the albums.

Master Don vs. Darrell Cee?

Master Don in a land slide. Don could entertain as a d.j. like an emcee could entertain on the mic. He entertained by cutting up records and cutting them a certain way. Don took you away from dancing to the music to watching him perform the music. Darrell Cee on the other hand wanted you to dance. Darrell Cee still had the old school vibe to him were he came to the party and played the latest records and had a special record and this, that, and a third that was going to keep people dancing in the middle of that floor. But from a hip hop head I want somebody that can do it like Don.

The Devastating Tito of the Fearless Four vs. Barry Bistro of The Crash Crew?

Tito, but out of all the guys in the Crash Crew that I felt most comfortable with or the one that acknowledged me when I was young was Barry Bystro. Bystro was always a cool laid back brother and he became in my opinion one of the better emcee’s in The Crash Crew towards the end but after awhile he just didn’t want to do it any more. I think he was the first member to leave the group if I am not mistaken. He stayed for all the records but certain guys want to just keep going even if there is no more record deals and some want to keep going. As far as Tito he is to the Fearless Four what EK Mike Cee is to The Crash Crew. He was the one out front he was the flashier type. Don’t get me wrong they all danced, they all did their thing and Mike towards the end got a very strong stage presence. But early on Tito was a lot stronger.

Spoonie Gee vs. Rayvon?

I don’t know and I didn’t hear much of Spoonie Gee. The only thing I knew about Spoonie was that record Love Rap and I would bet money that Moe Dee had something to do with the writing in some of those verses. I don’t know for sure but was that like a 24 minute record or something like that?

Nah it was long but not 24 minutes.

He just kept rhyming and rhyming and rhyming etc and we only used the first part of the record but he just kept rhyming.

All right what about Rayvon as an emcee?

(Dee whistles with respect.) Rayvon was a monster in the game! Out of the Magnificent 7 he was with out a shadow of a doubt the leader and also had the best voice. He was the most charismatic. He had more rhymes then all of them. He facilitated the way they came across setting it up for you to appreciate what Johnny Wa did. From a 1 to 10 I would give Rayvon a strong 8.

La Shu Bee vs. Special K?

Shu Bee was a character because of his style. Like I said EK Mike Cee was the pretty boy that stuck out, Barry B Stro was, more laid back and quit. G Man didn’t have a lot but he wasn’t the type to say “come on lets get it popping” like that. Shu Bee was like “what ever lets get it on I will battle who ever, when ever!” Shu Bee was the cool n----- out of the group. He was like Boom Boom Washington. (Character from The Welcome back Kotter show.) That’s how you could describe Shu Bee.

Boom Boom Washington!  

Yeah Shu Bee had that type of swagger to him self.

You a funny dude

But it’s the truth and when people read this that knows him will say “yeah that’s him.” Shu Bee had that flavor, swagger and style about himself. Now with Special K from what I seen was a much more quiet, reserved brother. But there were times he would definitely say things on the same level as Moe Dee but Moe just had a different tone that was more pleasant to what he said. But I think when I listened to early tapes and they went back and forth there would be something that Special K would say that would have me say “oh wow that’s hot!”

Yo bust it when we were growing up and listening to tapes I knew Moe’s voice but I never separated the voices of L.A. and Special K. because they sounded similar but as I got older I realized they may have sounded similar but they had totally two different types of style where they were like night and day. Special K’s rhymes were top notch. But this is something that cats never spoke on, In my opinion Rakim style favored Special K. Special K would also have you saying twenty years after first hearing it and then hearing it again “dam did he say that!” and so Special K would have one high powered rhyme after another that was slamming.

I would love to hear some of that again Troy

Don’t worry I got you.

See I didn’t get a real chance to hear it like I would have liked to, only certain things and like I said when you are listening to a tape and you are not really paying attention to it. Cats would listen for their favorites and the one that stuck out. And Moe Dee stuck out.

You right.

Plus Moe did that fast s---. Moe was my man and Caz was another. The winner between Special K and Shu Bee would have to be even because like I said Special K never did anything that could make himself stand out. It was Moe Dee and then the other two. It is no disrespect to the two but Moe was the one. She Bee wasn’t a great emcee to tone and what he said, but I knew him personally his character was like I said that Boom Boom Washington. He was just a cool dude with the swagger, so I would say it’s even. That’s just based on my knowledge of Shu Bee and my lack of knowledge of Special K.

Gangster Gee?

Gangster Gee was the Jaheim type who was a singer first then after the singing he started rhyming and fusing that rhyming singing style together. He was good. He was before his time. Thinking about it now out of all the guys that came up in our era, Gangster I feel would have been a great solo artist and that was because he could easily combine both aspects of music. And like I said he was a Jaheim Dave Hollister type.

Well you do know that he is an R&B singer today?

No I didn’t know that.

Yes Gangster Gee at one time sung back up to Luther Vandross and other known artists as well as done some solo work as well as his own album or two.

I am not surprised.

D.J. Pernellie O of the P Brothers vs. D.J. Spivey of Johnny Wa, Rayvon and the Magnificent 7?   

Good one because they both tried to do the same thing. They both d.j. first then they both got on the mic and rhymed.

I knew that about Pernellie O but I didn’t know that about Spivey rhyming.

Spivey could dance too.

Yes I know in fact he is still dancing to this day.

Right Spivey could dance his ass off. Pernellie O was cool and laid back.

Yes and he is a funny dude. I talked to him recently. So who would be the winner in a d.j. battle between the two?

I would have to give a slight edge to Pernellie O!

Oh yeah well that is some what strange because Rayvon told me Spivey is the best D.J. in Harlem even better then Master Don. But I guess every emcee is going to pick his d.j. over any other d.j. no matter what.

S--- Barry was better than Don! I would put Barry Bee up against any D.J. in fact I would put him up against the first Super D.J. of the World, based upon the competition that was taken…. Super Man Stevie Dee!

You are talking about homeboy that is rocking today.

Right and that is a Barry Bee protégé! Barry Bee is not credited like he should be with what he does with scratching and lifting. Barry went from the art of back spinning to lifting to the back and forth stuff such as transforming. Even thought the first person that actually did it was Jazzy Jeff. Barry took it and made it his own in a matter that was just incredible. The only thing with Barry was he couldn’t be highlighted as much as he could in Doug’s performance because there were two d.j.s.

So what was it that killed your spirit for hip hop during that time was it the situation with Biz and now today you are back in it?

Nah it had nothing to do with Biz, that did not damper me. It was me being so passionate about something and it not falling through. See you can not be the only one in the group with a deep passion for your success and I am not a soloist I am born from a group. So when you are born from a group you say o.k. well you are the lead we are going to push you forward but I am going to do the extras to make you sound even better. I always believed in pushing us forward but West did not have the same desires toward hip hop as I did. So like I said it wasn’t the Biz situation because Biz was a blessing. It was just me not being successful with something that I wanted so passionately to be successful at. 

So I just left it alone but my cousin kept stressing me about it. My cousin was working in a community center and he had some young guys over there about 15 of them. So after a while I just said this is what we do put the tapes together and let me listen to the tapes. So when he did that there were these two individuals that stuck out. It was this producer that was making beats and this young kid that was emceeing. What stuck was the young kid had an old soul to him, he could tell stories and he came across very clearly and very accurate. The pictorial of his stories were beautiful. So I hooked up with the two kids. The producer ended up going on his own. But the emcee is still with me and his name is Kaos. He use to run with Doo Wop and the Bounce Squad in the early days. He has other names such as Total Kaos, Black Sinatra and K aka Felony!

So he is trying to do it like O.D.B. (R.I.P.) with more then one name!

Right (we both laugh.) then one day Kaos introduced me to this guy that wanted to start up a record company. Kaos liked him, and me and the brother hit it off also. The guys name was Ezo who owned Crooked Grillz! We banned together and at one point we were forty strong with this record company. That’s staff, producers and emcees. We would have auditions every weekend and 100’s of guys would come through. Some times 5 guys might stick some times 2. Some times just one. But what would happen after these guys would finish and leave I would let the best ones stay back and let them rhyme with Kaos to see how they would fit. Nobody really stuck out until I met this kid name Slinger. Then we had this kid across the street that use to always tell us “yo I will take out any emcee you got over there. His name was Dommo and he had crazy personality. Dommo came over and he hit it off and that was the three man team. Well for a minute it was real good with them boys, but some how it faded out and the television portion of Crooked Grillz picked up. We had a public access show.

O.k. and what was the name of that show?

“You are Watching Crooked Grillz!”

o.k.

I was the host of the show, and I would go out and interview up and coming artists. Cats would see it and like it. I interviewed David Banner before he had his first hit. I did Loon before he did that big thing with Bad Boy. I did a lot of things. But the great thing about that was we got into the Rocafella camp! Once we got into that I hit it off with Big Face Gary who also went to Cardinal Hayes with me. And me and him got real cool. So he said come to the studio and once inside of there they had Petey Crack and then Beans came, then Dame came. And from their Dame gave us permission to be around Rockafella on the permanent bases.  From there I got to interview everybody and they were starting the Warriors Mix tape at that time. So we had a DVD that accommodated the mix tape. 

Once again situations were not of my liking so I had to take a step back, which really meant me staying for away from music but a there was another interested backer that kept calling me up. This guy wanted me to be a partner so he kept ringing my phone and trying to bring me back into the industry. He said he wanted me to come into business with him because he said he seen what I did at Crooked Grillz and he liked the way I carried myself. So it took a while but I said o.k. and we started to do some film stuff and then out of nowhere Kaos calls me up and says, “I know you don’t want to do the music but come by the studio.” When I got to the studio I was very impressed with what Kaos did with this new group he had, and how he embraced that idea of having a group at all and implementing all the things I tried to feed him when we were both at Crooked Grillz in the beginning. Man him and his boys had at least 30 records done.

Word.

When I listened to the records I was very impressed. So from there I said o.k. lets go forward. Me, my partner Paul and Kaos came to an agreement and came up with the name Felony Music. Big Films was already in place so we gave K a portion of Big Films, he gave us a portion of Felony Music and we are all now equal partners in both company’s.

So you are doing this right now as we speak that is beautiful, God Bless you.     

Right now, that is what’s popping.

That’s good. See I had no idea; I remember when you told me that Crooked Grillz had folded so I figured you folded your tent also and went back to a 9 to 5.

Well I still do that but I don’t know if I mentioned this to you but one day I saw Kid West and we were laughing and joking talking about the good old days and then he asked me what was I doing and I told him I was back into the music. He looked at me and said, “yo you still doing that man come on why are you still doing that I don’t get it.” Troy this s--- saves my life! If I didn’t have this then I would not have some solitude to go to that drives me from this monotonous day to day routine that we call life.

I feel you.

I mean the music excites me, it makes me get up and say “Oh yeah I want to do that” It’s like trip day at school. You don’t get up for school any other day but you get up when your school or class is going on a trip. The music is trip day for me, you don’t want to get up for school any other day but on trip day you up before the alarm goes off. (We both start to laugh.) The music is trip day for me!

One more question before we go where did you get the name Magic Dee from?

(A short pause.) I guess the best way to describe it as a youngster I was the EK Mike Cee of the group and I wanted to stick out, I wanted the ladies and that was what it was really all about with me. I don’t really know were Magic Dee came from but I was home writing and Mr. Magic from WHBI was hot at the time so I said Magic Derrick, Magic Dee? I said the hell with it I will go with Magic Dee. Then it went to the Mystical Magical Magic Dee. (Dee is laughing.) This is now crazy as I think about it. Then I changed my name to Dee Smooth. Now that we have changed the name to the Most Crew and cats that know me and my history call me Most. So now my name is Most, Dee Most. My team calls me Big One! But the one that sticks right now is Most.

Thank you my brother!

Thank you also. Peace

I want to thank my big brother Gary Joseph of the Lincoln projects that put me on to Magic Dee, Dee Smooth aka Most. Thanks again my brother Gary.

To my son’s Troy Jr. and Shemar.