|
 Oran
“Juice” Jones of the famed R&B classic " The Rain”
By Troy L. Smith
Spring
of 2007
What’s up my Brother
thank you for the time!
No problem my
brother Troy.
From the very top I
would like to start with where were you born and raised at?
I was born in
Houston, Texas and I moved to Harlem, New York when I was 3 years old.
The first stop was 140nd street and Amsterdam Avenue.
That’s over by
Hamilton Place.
Yes, right across
the street from Hamilton Park. From there we moved to a few places such
as the south Bronx, St Nicholas Avenue and Edgecombe back over in
Harlem, then Marble Hill projects further uptown. But for the most part
I was over on Amsterdam Avenue and 140th street. I stayed
there with my great aunt who had a whorehouse. The only problem with
that was the Police kept raiding the place. So she eventually bought all
the apartments on one of the floors of the building. After she stacked
enough money she rented out the rooms to the prostitutes. The guy that
owned the building was a Jewish cat who was more of a customer then
anything else, and his son was a dope fein. So it sort of kept a balance
on things.
This was like the early
sixty’s?
Right, and my aunt didn’t just have
prostitutes but also her friends might need to lay up, along with us
having an apartment there. Also some murder for hirer dudes paid some
rent, but it was hers and she later got into Real Estate. A lot of this
stuff I found out years later, because I was a real young boy when this
was first going on. The strange thing about those gangsters was they
told me that they were butchers and they use to carry around a lot of
meat cleavers and saws and s--- like that.
(Troy starts laughing.)
These were hit men carrying meat cleavers? Instead of shotguns and
pistols they carrying meat cleavers?
Yeah they didn’t
kill anybody they were the cats you call after some one was killed.
O.k. I see, they were
cutting up the bodies! So these dudes were most likely working for the
mob then!
Yeah they were getting down like that. But
in time I moved back to Houston to attend College. I have a big family
down there in Louisiana as well as Lake Charles. I have real history
there. I have like one of the oldest families in Lake Charles,
Mississippi and all through the south. In the 1920’s my aunts had
PhD’s! So my family is large and I was very interested in moving back
to Texas to get reacquainted with my family, remember I left when I was
3 years old. The college I went to down there was Texas Southern
University.
So you came back to
Harlem after you finished school?
Right, and the
reason why was Kurtis Blow came through were I was going to College at.
Kurtis Blows brother Kim, and I grew up together as well as hustled
together on 140th street Amsterdam Avenue. Kurtis was like my
younger brother, but his big brother and me were real close. Kim was a
crazy cat but he was a real good dude, so him and I use to hang out.
When Kurtis came to Houston to play he already had his first record
Christmas Rapping.
What was going on before
College.
I went to Brandies High school.
O.k. that was my high
school on 84th street, so you must have been in there when
Alonzo Jackson was slaying them on the courts back then for Brandies!
Exactly, but I stopped going, and they
transferred me to Kennedy High School up in the Bronx.
Damn, I didn’t know
Kennedy was up during your time. So you caught it when it was brand new.
I was definitely
one of the first brothers going there. See what happened at Brandeis was
they sent a letter to my house saying that I missed too many days and
there was know way I was going to pass, so I should either repeat the
class or take a G.E.D. test. At that time G.E.D. was new, so they told
me all I needed was 225 to pass. I got 230 I passed and they gave me my
G.E.D. so I got out of school that weekend. So my mother was like “you
know that is not going to be worth anything, that ain’t real!”
(We both start
laughing.)
“You better get something real before
somebody finds out.” So she said go down to Texas and go to TSU. She
said you don’t even have to pay to go to school, because she still had
property down there that made me a resident. That was one of the main
reasons why I went back. When I got down they’re I starting getting
into my schoolwork but I linked up with another New York cat that was
going to school with me. He was going back and forth to New York every
semester. He’s coming back with Gator shoes; Ore’s, all types of fly
gear. So I was like dam I won’t to be like him and this cat was my
age. I was selling a little bit of this and that but not like him. So he
turns me on and I start making those runs back and forth to New York. It
started getting risky but I was turning people on and I was developing
my style and swagger.
So did you take weed
down there or coke, or did you go straight to the Heroine?
First it was weed, and then I started
f------ around with the Coke. But I really didn’t know much about
that; you know what I am saying! It eventually went bad, so after a
while I said I not going to do that. I was going to get some Heroine,
but it takes a certain type of cat to rock that, I tried it for a little
while. I really didn’t have the nerve or stomach for it.
Alright back in those
days a nickel bag of weed had like seven good joints in it. How much was
a nickel bag going for down they’re in Texas?
They didn’t sell
nickel bags down there. You would buy an ounce for like 45 dollars. See
I could buy a pound of weed for like $200 and then I would bring it up
to New York and give it away for $800.
So what about when you
bring weed back from New York, to Houston?
It was about the
quality, and Houston cats were always associated with names. So I would
say this is straight from New York, and they wouldn’t give a f--- what
it is then. If I went to New York and came back with say some Haze, I
could mix it with anything from Houston and it would still be top notch.
So I was getting crazy with it.
Before you went to
Brandies how was your street life in Harlem?
I was doing stick ups. We were doing stick
ups and selling dust on the block. That is how I ran in to Russell; he
was selling that Freeze on s---!
Freeze On?
Yeah he was going to head shops and buying
that s---.
Oh you talking about
that stuff they sell in the head shop stores legally, where you crack it
open and sniff it and it is suppose to give you a mellow head feeling?
Right, he was getting that to sell to
promote his parties for Kurtis Blow. Also when I say doing stick-ups it
wasn’t no heavy type stuff, praise God I didn’t have to shoot
nobody.
So how old were you when
you first started the stick ups?
I was like 14, 15 years old. The robbery I
did with my little crew wasn’t even with guns. I hired some cats and
told them to stand on the side with these rocks or bricks. I ran in the
store with Kim, Kurtis Blows brother. We snatched the most expensive
meat in the store and put it in shopping carts. We filled up two
shopping carts. I not talking about your little ghetto neighborhood
bodega’s or little super markets I am talking about your Dagostino’s
or Citarellos type super markets from downtown. Filet mignon or what
ever else could be fly in that type of store.
So you knew about this
type of stuff at 14 years old?
Well I used to
read a lot and my I.Q. is 145.
I got you.
So we ran out with
the meat and I got the kids on the other side lamping with the bricks.
And they started throwing the bricks as the security and other workers
from the store are chasing us. Security and the workers run back in and
we free as a bird to sell our meats. We made a nice little piece of
money. I am talking like 600 to 700 dollars! Then one day some real
n------ ran up on us. They were our age but they were some real n------.
They were over there from 8th avenue and 140th street. These
cats ran up on us with some pistols and took that little bit of change
we had. I remember we were so distraught of that s---, because that was
out first encounter with some real n------. (Juice Jones starts
laughing.)
So to everybody else
ya’ll were intimidating but these cats were real live!
 It
wasn’t about intimidating because they were just like us they were
trying to get money. I wish I could say I came out of real bad block and
we were all killers. See remember my aunt had those apartments and I use
to come in and listen to all those gangster stories. But
to be honest my
childhood was very good. My mother was very young when she came to New
York and she ran into a man who was a sanitation worker who was very
stable, he wasn’t the most loving mother f----- in the world but he
was very stable. So my mother went to nursing school and she eventually
became a nurse. So our life was not hectic. So during that time of
selling that meat we were gangsters at that point at least in our minds.
We bought like ounces of weed here and there and broke them down to
loose joints and sold them up until that point. But when we ran into
cats our age with real guns, which weren’t afraid to pistol-whip my
man to
make a point. Being as they were 14 years old I was like what
f------ movie did they see?
(We both start
laughing.)
Who the f--- they
been talking to! Because I want to talk to that mother f-----!
(Troy is laughing
harder.)
Because the way they ran up on us, and they
was like ‘yeah what’s up Kimba.’ They use to call my man Kimba
because he was a lion. You dig what I am saying and they used to call me
Orie, because I was fly with mine. We used to go to A.J. Lester’s on
the regular and get the fly s---, rocking the suede fronts and Alpackers,
we was some fly dressing brothers!
This was at 14 years
old?
At 14 I had
Playboys man! Grown n------ was like ‘hold up kid!’ I was getting
paid, we didn’t do the meat thing once, we did it a few times and I
was buying a lot of weed!
So them boys from 8th
avenue got wind of what ya’ll were doing?
Right, they got wind of it because we put
my man down who was another fly n----- and his name was Crip and he was
a gambling type dude that ran in all the gambling after hour spots. He
was one of them cats that was real lucky so cats would let him in even
though he was a real young dude. So he would be over there on Edgecombe,
St. Nicholas, and 8th or Brad Hurst avenues shooting ceelo or craps. He
was real good with the dice. He was the first cat in the crew to buy a
medallion so we put him on. But we were still really harmless young
boys.
Ya’ll didn’t have no
name for your crew?
Nah Troy we
weren’t even advanced like that, we were just hanging out. So Crip
would be on 8th avenue hangout gambling and when he would be
finish he would come back up the hill and chill with us. He was from
Convent Avenue. When he came up to our block one-day n------s followed
him. The cats that came behind him were Allie Moe and some other cats.
I knew about Allie Moe.
Yeah he was notorious for
knocking out dudes. Also some twins who later on became the Mark 5
brothers were with them.
I remember the Mark 5
club over on 145th 146th and St. Nicholas Avenue.
Right, and another
cat that day with them was Cisco from 116th street.
You’re talking about
the Cisco that was running with Freddie Myers.
Right, they also had Ivan running with
them.
Wild ass Ivan, those
were some notorious dudes.
They were killers and my appointment with
that was brief also.
So what about the
jewelry stuff?
That was like when
I was 16 years old. But I more or less got poisoned when those cats from
8th avenue came to rob us. I was more fascinated by the
situation then anything else. That’s when I said the weed wasn’t big
enough, and I started dabbling in the Coke and Heroine. But still it
takes a certain type of brother to deal with Dope.
Well you right because
you can hold weed for a longer period of time then Heroine.
Right you can’t
hold it as long and I constantly kept f---ing it up! Plus I might cut it
too much with the quinine or too little. I even had a dope fein stick me
up one night. I had the option to kill him or just stop the game all
together.
Where were you trying to
bump off?
Right around my
block, that is how green I was. So right there they weren’t taking me
serious.
All along while this was
going on what was Kurtis Blow doing?
He was running around with Russell Simmons.
But while he was doing that I left weed coke and dope alone and got on
with the Dust (PCP.) That was it, I killed it on that. But it would make
your cloths stink with a terrible order.
Where did you pump your
Dust?
Right there in the
same block!
Damn kid, and where did
you get your Dust juice from?
I was making it my
self. I had a cat working at the Funeral home on 141st street
and St. Nicholas Avenue.
Did you use the embalmming
fluids?
Yeah I had this
kid that worked over there at the funeral home hitting me off.
You’re talking about
Benta’s funeral!
Right, well at the
time White Mike was there and he was hitting me off, and then I would
get the mint leaves and then we would bake it.
Damn bake it too?
Yes, and with that
we made a little bit of money. We didn’t get rich but we came off.
Trouble came though because some Jamaican cats came on 141st
street and Amsterdam Avenue and opened a store, and they started selling
weed out of the store. They then came to me and my crew and said we had
to leave because they didn’t need all the attention from the cops with
us selling the Dust. Of course we wouldn’t leave and they came with
pistols and shoot us up. So now it’s time for me to go get my pistol
and retaliate. So now I got to walk around with a pistol and I got this
Dust on me and my cloths are smelling and the Dope feigns are waiting to
see how I handle it, because I owe them some bullets also. So it just
became too much. So that was one more reason for my mother to say I have
to go down to Texas. While all this was going on Kurtis Blow was doing
his thing along with Russell. Although this was going on my paper was
pretty large at that time. No Nicky Barnes, Fat Cat type thing but
enough to get Russell Simmons started with his RUNDMC dream. So put that
in the story that I help him get his thing started.
Approximately how much
did you give him?
$1700, he really just needed a little help
on a few shows.
So did he ever hit you
back for that?
Yes he did and
much more! During this time Russell and me were about 17,
18 years old. Kurtis was about 15, 16 years old and I would see him from
time to time rocking at City College and Hotel Diplomat.
So how did you feel
about Hip Hop during that time?
I was trying to
get money man!
So you weren’t paying
attention to Hollywood and Flash and the rest of the game?
I knew of them, I knew Flash, I knew
Starski. I used to go over to the Roof Top a lot.
Well Roof Top didn’t
really jump off until later on in the 80’s!
 Right
but we still used to go up there to gamble before it got popular for you
guys. It was street long before that. I knew Teddy Riley before he was
even with Kids At Work long before the group Guy. He was a fly lil
n----- when he was running with Gene Griffin. I remember Gene when he
was out there with a Bible.
You talking about the
manager for Teddy’s group Guy?
Right, he was a Bible salesman, but he
became a hell of a manager for them. With the Roof Top they were
partying, but it was an after hour spot where you could go to gamble and
listen to some music. Russell would be up there too.
Russell was all over!
Exactly Russell was all over.
What about the Jewelry
heist?
Well that was
blown out of proportion. We did that one time. We stuck up this jewelry
store and I took Kim with me. I said tie up the people and leave them in
the back. He wrapped them up like mummies.
(Troy starts laughing.)
Yeah he rapped them up like mummies but it
was more of a joke then anything else. Thank God the police never came
and we didn’t have to go to jail. Nothing like that! So many things
happened that I realized later on in life that it was a message from
God, that was allowing me to make it, because so many things could have
went wrong that didn’t go wrong, were we wouldn’t even be speaking
to each other today.
Right.
And it would have
been over something stupid you know what I am saying. Because ain’t
nothing glorious about going to jail, getting killed or shot up.
Yeah we thought about it
when we were kids but as we got older we had to be out of our mind!
Right, we were
ridiculous, and it was just stupid!
Alright so now you in
Texas going to school and here comes Kurtis Blow and his brother Kim on
tour for Christmas Rap.
Right, and while they were on tour in Texas
I met some of his people. At the time I was in school. I was also
writing, so some of his people convinced me to come back to New York.
So where did that
passion for writing come from? Were you a big fan of the groups like
Stylistics, Delfonics etc. who wrote beautiful songs?
Well that is the
time frame of music that I grew up in, and I do care about that sound.
Yeah you not lying I
love that music as well. So who were your biggest in fluencies to
inspire you to want to write?
Well I really just wanted to get the check.
I wish I could throw some musical thing in there but it was just about
the check!
So how did you know to
go this route to get a check?
I didn’t know, Kurtis was doing an album
and he asked me did I want to write a song on it so I said sure.
The first song you wrote
was Day Dreaming?
Yeah Day Dreaming,
I wrote that. I asked him could I get a check for this song, he said
yeah. He asked me what I was going to write about before I did it, I
said I didn’t know I would figure it out. Now Davy Dee actually banged
out the melody with a pencil on a Coca Cola bottle. Now the problem came
when the royalty checks came, because Kurtis
got a check and it said one thing and I got a
check and it wasn’t a fraction of what he got. At that point I became
very upset and distraught.
Very bitter about the
situation, were you bitter with Kurtis Blow or the people that handled
the money?
Not with Kurtis
Blow. I always kept it pimpin. Make sure you put that in there player, I
always kept it pimpin. I never hated the played I always hated the game.
Don’t hate the player, hate the game!
Right I got you.
I became
introduced to the game very early in life, and I managed to come to a
point where I can apply it, so I always kept it pimpin. So I never got
upset with Kurtis. Even up to this day, even with Russell there are some
things I could be very upset with him about but I am not, and that is
because I keep it pimpin.
I got you. So let’s go
back to Day Dreaming what got you inspired to write that song? Was it a
girl or what, because it is a beautiful song?
Well at the time of writing the song I was
trying to be very diverse with the music I was listening to.
Such as?
Well at that time
I had been listening to a cat name Christopher Cross.
O.K. you talking about
homeboy that sing that light rock. Yeah he has a few nice hits.
Right well one of
them was called Sailing. I said, “Now how profound is that?” Because
what he was actually saying was he was sailing away. So I said what
would be the Black approach to that, because black people don’t sail.
What we do is we Day Dream, you dig!
My man, I dig that.
We don’t sail we Day Dream.
Right.
So that is how that came about. Damn you
are the only cat I ever told that too! I don’t think I have ever told
anybody that.
Thank you for sharing
that my brother. Now how did that make you feel when that record started
blowing up, because I got a tape with Kurtis Blow (No. 26 New Years Eve
at Skate Palace 1981.) singing that song and girls are screaming.
I was flattered as far as that was concern.
Did it inspire you to
write more?
No, the check, the
check!
The Check! You is a
funny dude, back to the check. (We both start laughing.)
Yes back to the
check. The check was not fun; it was not a pleasant thing!
You is a funny brother,
I know you hanging out with my man Mark Joyner, I know ya’ll brothers
were having a good time because you is a funny brother and he is
hilarious. (Mark Joyner is a brother I grew up with in the Grant
Projects in Harlem who put me in contact with Oran Juice Jones.)
Mark is hilarious, he used to tell me some
s---…(Juice Jones starts laughing.) I can’t even speak on it.
Alright so back to what
we were talking about. Did you try and write for more people, did you
shy away or was it time for you to do the singing?
No, I told Kurt I had to do it again. So I
told him you have to help me. So he took me up to Mercury and we did
this record called “Rock your body down” with this cat name Jerome
Gasper. That record did pretty well in Europe. Kurt beat me out of my
advance check; I had to chase him down for it. So he finally gives the
check to me and says he is going to make it up to me. We go over to
Atlantic with I think Joel Cashbar and I made a record over there. The
strangest thing happened at Atlantic because when the father that ran
the place went on vacation he let his son run the place.
Well his son signed me, put the
record out and gave me an advance. Kurt gave me what he owed me. But
when the father came back he said “no my son can’t do that”! The
father cut the whole deal, but I already got the money. While all that
was going down Russell said ‘don’t sweat that I have a deal going
down with Columbia Records.’ He said it’s not a lot of money but it
is going to be a cool situation to be involved with, and its called Def
Jam. I said all right I will come over to your side Russell and help do
that, and that is how that got started there. And from there it was down
hill every since!
You said down hill? (We
both start laughing.) You haven’t even done your record and you
talking about down hill!
 Ah
man I’m just saying! But today I am in a situation where I got a
partner name Protégé down here in Houston, and we have a little
company name MoJo. I am going to have another record. There was a time I
was kind of gun shy because I figure what can I contribute with all
these fly young cats coming out fresh and exciting doing there thing.
With an old cat like me what am I going to talk about? But with this
remerge of Old School Hip Hop and new affection for Neo Soul maybe
it’s a good time. I think maybe the climate is good. In a minute D'Angelo
is going to come out with another record soon. As well as Charlie Wilson
and I hear he took his braids out.
What about D’angelo
did he lose that weight?
I think so.
I was surprised.
He came to a party
I had in New York a while back, I have seen him lately. He is going
through some things but he is going to do very well I think.
Possibly, because he has
a natural voice, that sounds real good.
Oh he is incredible! Man that cat is
incredible. But on another note I had my whole crash course at Def Jam!
So who were your R&B
influences?
 Curtis
Mayfield, Marvin Gaye and the Chi Lites were inspiring, as well as
Atlanta, Philly Sound, Blue Magic, Delphonics, and the Stylistics. And
with all those different
artists at that time that wasn’t no defined sound.
The beautiful thing about them was that wasn’t a Motown sound
either.
No, not at all.
But the sound of Philadelphia, Atlantic or
the Memphis sound, they weren’t to be defined. They were just cats
doing there thing. I came out of that, cats doing their thing with out a
real nucleus or no really identifiable sound.
I understand what you
are saying because when your record came out I said damn what can I put
with this, because you came during the time Prince came out with
something real hot as well as Michael Jackson, plus you had other new
groups coming out at that time.
You right and that might have lead to my
detriment also because it works both ways because the good thing is that
there is no identifiable sound that is easily placed in a category. But
the detriment is that there is no barometer by which you can gage
success. The numbers have to speak for them selves in order for you to
be deemed successful or not. Because of that and what that means is
technically you will always be a novelty.
Right.
See Prince adopted Rocker! He was a rocker
and he fell in that category. Even though he didn’t confess to that,
he allowed that category to embrace him or for him to be embraced into
that category because it gave him an identity. It gave him something to
grab on to. For the most Prince music is like, what can you compare that
to!
Right, exactly!
You can’t, each song is an entity into it
self.
You are right I
understand what you are saying because it is similar with Michael
Jackson’s music.
Exactly
And Sade’s music
Right Sade.
They all have their own
thing and you can’t really put them with other people’s music. Say
like you would be able to put say Tavares with the Bee Gee’s or
something like that!
Right.
Not to say that they
exactly fit but they belong under….
They fit the same category. Where as Sade
wouldn’t or a Hendrix! Hendrix is known definable. That is a good
thing if you have a machine that is going to continuously support you.
Right.
The good thing is
that every time you come out, you fly with some other s---! But the
thing is when you don’t come out its like do we really rally behind
feeling like we need that, then there is also the thought do we really
need that because we don’t know what that was in the first place.
Right. So what were your
feelings about guys like Colonel Abrams and say Alexander O’Neal those
type of guys because that was right around your time as well.
Yeah, yeah I knew them very well! Me,
Abrams and O’Neal use to hang out tough as well as Cherell. We use to
all hang out. In fact I use to have a thing with Cherell’s cousin. But
Colonel Abrams knew that his time was limited.
Was Abrams from over
there on 8th avenue I think by 145th street?
Well he was from Harlem. You wouldn’t believe
it right?
Nah somebody told me
back then.
He was from Harlem I not sure if it was
Edgecomb or St. Nicholas but he was from Harlem. I didn’t know him
before he started coming off but we later became cool. We talked about
things and he was a very intelligent cat. He understood his time was
limited he just wanted to get in and get some paper and get in to some
real estate after that. With Alexander his thing was little bit more
tragic. He had a substance abuse problem.
Right we know about
that, but I have to stop and say that joint he made “If you were here
tonight”, that is a bad mother…
Oh man it is incredible. He is an
incredible cat. In the end he fixed his situation but he really just had
to leave the states. He went to Europe and just stayed.
We definitely be like
where is homeboy at, because he is a real talented brother!
Jocelyn Brown did
the same thing also.
For the same reasons?
No, no she did it because she just wanted
to work.
I say that because I
only remember that one hit she had over here.
She had other hits
but not anything that we were aware of. She had a couple jazz joints
that a lot of jazz buffs were aware of. But she just wanted to work.
Like Allison Williams was, she just wanted to work also. Phyllis Hyman
the same way.
Right before she passed
away.
Yeah me and her use to talk a lot also.
Her, Alice and I talked a lot because she was
Allison’s Godmother. They took that serious too. They got blood test
and s--- like that with documents. Hyman’s life was tragic also; she
was a very talented sister.
Right she suffered from
some form of Depression.
Well she was a
very beautiful person who wanted love; she was in a few relationships
that didn’t go well. In fact they were very bad experiences for her,
and that is what bought on the depression. They should write a story
about her, she is a very talented sister.
We would have to include
homeboy also, Donnie Hathaway.
That whole set, we
use to hang out at a spot called Under the Stairs. Over by the Cellar it
was on 96th street.
I believe Miles Davies
use to hangout over there also.
He used to be over
at the Cellar but that was before my time. When he was coming over there
he was already well established as a star, but that was when I first
started going there. I didn’t know him before that. Ray Chue and the
Crew (The Apollo Theater band.) and other cats use to come up in there.
Johnny Kemp, Ashford and Simpson, Luther Vandross they all use to come
out of there.
Dam The Cellar was a
popular spot.
Ah man, a whole lot. Aleeta Holloway. A
whole bunch came out of there.
How did you know about
The Cellar to hang out there?
I used to hang out
with a lot of Jazz cats. We use to go down to café Wah in the village
and then come uptown and it would be The Cellar.
Where was the Café Wah
at?
That was on 3rd
street and McDougal.
Damn buddy you was
getting around that’s good, you wasn’t staying in one spot.
We were on that
set; we had a couple very eclectic group of friends.
And this was before the
Rain?
Right, before and during the Rain.
How did you know you had
that voice to sing that song In the rain?
To be frank with
you the monologue is what sold that record. The whole Oran Juice Jones
phenomenon was the result of that monologue.
Right I see.
The monologue was just an approach to do
something. Remember what we were talking about earlier, that
identifiable quality? Like Prince became a Rocker and that was only to
give people something to identify with. I wanted to have that also.
Well how did you know
that at that time?
Well Oscar Brown had made attempts at it.
Do you remember that record the Signified Monkey?
Yeah right.
Those were
attempts. But not anything contemporary, but it was comedic. But I
believed it could be done in a comedic way, with wit and humor and
cleverness…
But still be cool.
Right still be cool, exactly. That was my
attempt to do that.
Right, and you killed it
on that one.
And once again there was no barometer by
which to gage the success or failure of something that exist in its own
arena by it self. So part of it being novelty helped it be like “Wow,
oh s---.” Now whether it was good or not that came later. That is now
being realized, because 20 years after the fact people still know the
lines and dialogue.
Exactly.
That suggested that it was successful. Now
profitable is another thing. (We both start laughing.) But from a
creative perspective we hit.
So how did you know to
sing “I saw you…” before the monologue started?
Just like the Day Dreaming song I wasn’t
unfamiliar with songs! I mean I wanted to be a singer. I didn’t think
I was the greatest singer in the world but I did think I could tell a
story. I knew that, and to be honest that is why I put the monologue to
it because I didn’t feel sufficient as a singer. So I thought the
monologue would give it a little more depth.
I feel you.
As well it was more important to establish
Oran Juice Jones as an entity. As oppose to The Rain being a hit record.
The monologue gave Oran Juice Jones an identity. Like Prince the Rocker,
Oran Juice Jones became the identity with the monologue. There is a
million cats singing so you are going to judge the singer by the song.
So the monologue is the way of making a connection to who ever took the
time out to listen.
So what inspired that
record it self? I know you needed the monologue, but where did you get
the thought, the idea to start saying those words, “You just a
squirrel trying to get a nut,” and all that stuff. As well as the
lyrics to In the Rain, were you actually broken hearted by a women?
Nah nah I had gone through some stuff but
not to the point where I wanted to write a song about it. At the time
the song was actually written by Vinnie Bell.
Who was he?
He was a young producer that was trying to
get on at the time. I my self was trying to get with cats that were
first timers like me. You know give them a shot. He wrote the song but I
was like well how would I handle that. Once again my interest was to
make Oran Juice Jones an entity.
Right.
So that is why the monologue came about to
establish me. So the marriage worked very well.
So he wrote the melody
and the concept, but you actually wrote that monologue your self.
Right I wrote the monologue.
Is there anything that
inspired you to write the monologue, like a situation in life?
No, really the approach was just logic. It
was a logical approach because from that point what do men do? Beat the
woman up? Kicker her, stomp her out, get gorilla. I’m too cool for
that.
(Troy starts laughing.)
I’m not throwing no girl down any flight of
stairs! Come on player I am a pimp!
(Troy is laughing.)
You know what I am saying. (With a
sarcastically funny voice.) I am not doing that s---. I wasn’t a pimp
but I entertain that mentality. I always applied the concept of pimping
and what that dictates is totally alien. Throwing a woman down a flight
of stairs is totally…man I seen a chick get thrown out of a window in
a hotel. It was only the second floor and she didn’t get hurt or
nothing but the whole idea of a woman going out of the window was crazy
to me.
But back to me, that is not what I would do
so I was like how could I be cool about it. I would just take back
everything, and I just flip the script and keep it pimpin! Just get fly
with ours and this is how we would do it. It provided an alternative
option as oppose to beating her up and throwing her down a flight of
stairs. Any gorilla could do that.
Right.
Which open up the door to a lot of cats
that wanted to be cool at that point. If you could identify with it you
was cool. If you couldn’t understand that player believe me you
weren’t supposed to!
Right.
It wasn’t for you. (We both start
laughing.)
How long did that take
for you to put that all together?
I had my own money so I went down there one
night and just paid for the engineer name Steve Ett. We did
that at a studio name Chung King Recording studio. It was down in the
east village. It was a well-known hip-hop spot. All your Eric B records
came from there. I use to share a lot of time with the Red Hot Chili
Peppers who use to do work in there also. All of the Beastie Boys as
well, and all the Def Jam s--- was down there. Also Kane and all the
Cold Chillin stuff. I forgot about Wild Pitch too.
How much were they
charging for your session?
They didn’t charge us anything for the
room. That was because me and John King were cool, John King was cool
with everybody. If you were cool with him you could bring some weed and
a couple of dollars. He would take what you had in your pocket or what
ever you offered him.
Dam he was cool like
that.
But you had to pay Steve Ray; he wouldn’t
come out the house unless you had a hundred and better. He said,
“don’t wake me unless you have a hundred coming out of your
pocket.” And if I stayed for 3 or 4 more hours, that would be another
hundred. So I wake homie up in the middle of the night and he came down,
I paid him and we smoked a couple of blunts and we did it.
How long did that take
for you to do? One session?
An hour and 45 minutes.
Damn, that’s all for
In the Rain?
Yeah an hour and forty five minutes, but we
were there for seven hours.
So ya’ll were
preparing for like seven hours?
Nah the first four hours we were just
smoking.
(Troy starts laughing.)
Smoking Cheba! Smoking blunts. And after
that smoking we were eating. Then we kicked up and started talking.
So you were getting in
your mode before you started singing!
Yeah getting into
that mode, and then we stepped into the lab and put it together in an
hour and forty five minutes and we was out. When I walked out of the
both I grabbed the two-inch and the Slave.
What you called it a
Slave? Why did they call it that?
Yeah the reel, and that was because the
two-inch was called the Master, and the second tape was the Slave, and
that was because you can cut the Slave. It was on some racial s---. The
Master was the multi track that you don’t mess with.
O.K. I see
If you had to make
an edit or cut you would cut the Slave. The second copy is where you
would make the physical edits on. There was no digital it was analogue
back then. You had to physically cut the multi track, but mother f------
didn’t want to cut the multi track because that would be it, and they
had to make another one. So they would cut the Slave. But there was a
cat name Roddy Hui that did all the RUNDMC s--- as well as the Whodini.
This was a Chinese brother, he didn’t make any Slave. He actually
cut…and he only had one machine at the time. But these mother f------
was so good they cut the multi track and Russell trusted him so much
that we didn’t give a f--- and he cut the Master he was
that good. He was the baddest dude there. He is at NYU right now.
I think he is like the dean of audio sound or something at NYU. As well
as teaching engineering today.
So now where did you
take your 2 inch and the Slave?
I took it to Def Jam, and just added it to
the album. The single to that album was already out called “You
can’t hide from love” I just went to Columbia and took the Master
out of the vault and took it down to the studio and did it my self and
then bought it back. I just did that for that particular song because I
just dug the song. See the whole album was on a reel and this was my
last chance to change any thing that I wanted to change.
I see.
But this needs to be said that even though
In The Rain was a hit the other tracks were just as good. People still
ask me what about Shanikwa. I got a couple of statements from Harry Fox
and checks here and there like that but for those songs; it is not like
they didn’t exist they did well. The videos played and the records
played. But over here for some reason in this country they just locked
on to In the Rain and that was it.
I am sorry my brother I
didn’t know that, I thought In the Rain was a 12-inch and that was
your first joint. I did my homework and found out you made 4 albums
total.
Well that was four
albums for Def Jam. You hear In the Rain a lot but in other parts of the
world much more is played. I went out to Europe on the strength of the
other records. I did four world tours and each one was on the strength
of other records. But for some reason it was just Walking in The Rain
over here.
Well I am going to tell
you this I really love Soul and R&B and I am looking forward to
buying your CDs. I really didn’t know that there was like a whole
album with many cuts other then The Rain! I mean I know that you did
other stuff but I also have a hard time finding your stuff.
That was some political problems I had. I
was told I was given keys to the kingdom and I abused that. But that was
another thing.
You going to speak on it
or are you going to leave it for some one else to get the story out of
you.
It’s no story.
Alright lets do it like
this because we still got to get it out of you. What was 1986 and 87
like for you. Because on October 3rd that hit In The Rain
came out and it ballooned or peaked on the 31st of October
and for nine weeks it was on the charts! What was 1986 like for you?
It was cool. Everything went well. I was
going around the world during that time. Most of the time I wasn’t
even in the states during that time. When I did coming home I would go
uptown and hang out at spots and clubs and be with my cronies and
crimies, and we would just do our thing. That too was to my detriment
also.
Hanging out with the
boys.
Right, but not because of them!
Alright I am going to do
it like this I have 15 years clean. Today I don’t use any drugs nor
drink. I don’t hustle today. I use to run with all my n------ from the
Grant projects hustling and using. I am not that Monster today that I
was back then so I knew a lot about you when I was growing up, because
Mark uses to show me pictures of you and him and others when ya’ll
were hanging out back then.
Yeah we had a lot of things going on.
So what I am saying is,
was the street life too much for you at that time and you took the
street life with you into the studios and stuff like that and that’s
what kind of like hurt your situation you are saying?
It hurt it a lot, yeah it did. I took a lot
of that attitude with me.
Your arrogance!
Yes the arrogance and the whole gangster
mentality.
Smacking n------ up!
Not really smacking, I just….
Not you but the n------
around you, your click.
No my threats were
more direct. I didn’t like physical violence, publicly displayed.
I understand that but
what about the cats that were running with you. Them n------ would love
to do something for you just like that!
Nah they would just leave notes. I went to
Columbia one day and this was the very first time we had a problem and
Ruben told me he didn’t want to do something. It was to promote a
party or something I wanted to do and he didn’t want to do it! It
really hurt me. So I wrote down an address. He said what’s that? I
said that’s the address where your kids go to private school.
Damn!
He looked at me and it was a strange look.
The moment I did it I knew I made a mistake.
Right.
The moment I did
it I said my God I wish I could take this back! But it was to late then.
So I had to play it all the way. But it was s--- like that that really
hurt me. Going up to Columbia and Polygram and slamming doors and
letting them know you are going to do it my way. See I didn’t
understand…when you making a transition from one level to the next you
cannot take the baggage of that first experience with you.
Right.
You have to completely reinvent your self,
and I didn’t recognize that at that point, so that was to my
detriment.
I got you.
The cats that you play with man, its fun
while were playing. But we all have to be playing. Once it becomes
aggressive to the point were we ain’t playing no more, you know these
are the people either playing with you or they are going to get scared
and leave you the f--- alone.
Right, right.
And that’s what really happened. But the
way it was timed it wasn’t that they left me alone. See I had
responsibilities that were overwhelming that out weighted my desires to
be in the music business because of the time that was being consumed. So
I very well couldn’t be in two places at the same time, so I had to
make a choice. So I choose what I held most dear to me (My Mother.). And
that is the reason why I could entertain the idea of trying to making
another album today.
Cats have approached me saying we will help
you, we will do this, we can record here it won’t cost you anything.
We will mix we will master! You will have a finished product! We will
help you promote it we will go to radio, Tom Joyner’s etc. and he has
said he has a lot of radio stations that will support me. It was just me
up until this point thinking that I had no real artistic contribution to
make because it has always been offered to me. And to be honest it never
was really about the paper. It was about the paper when I didn’t know
any better. But when I finally got poisoned by the art bug it became an
artistic endeavor.
So that is what drove
you.
Well that is what survives. You dig what I
am saying. I can make a hundred million dollars. And you will never see
the hundred million but what you will see is what I buy with that
hundred million. You know Trump because you see the buildings.
Right.
So it’s your artistic endeavor that
survives. And it worked out so well that when I come back this time
again I will not becoming back to make a career but to make my
impression felt.
I feel you, to put your
art out there so that it last 100 to 200 to 300 years from now!
Hopefully baby boy….(Juice starts
laughing.)
I know what you saying
like the history books. The music applies as well.
Absolutely just like this piece that you
are writing. And see I had to come to that level, which is a level of
passion. You have to have a passion for it. Today I have good people
working with me like my man Prodigy who goes under the name Azeem Lateef.
Azeem means “Unconquerable Pleasure”! (Juice starts laughing with
joy.) That’s my man. So I have been blessed by having people like that
around me, as well as our man Mark Joyner. So if that’s a testimony of
a good life then I have lived well.
I feel you. So through
making this music you have come across a lot of people such as Richard
Dimples, Al Green, Allison Williams…did you know Alison Williams
before the record?
Yes I did. We grew up together. She is
originally from Long Island, but her mother was a nurse and she did a
stint at a methadone facility in Harlem.
What the Lee building on
125th and Park Avenue?
Nah, the one on
126th street. Between convent and Amsterdam.
Oh you are talking about
the Sober up Station.
Right what you know about that? (Juice
starts laughing.)
That’s right around
the corner from my projects.
Well I lived right
around the block from it to. I was on 130th street and St.
Nicholas Terrace.
Oh up on Convent across
from Kool Moe Dee and L.A. Sunshine and the rest of the Treacherous
Three.
Yeah I knew all
them cats, Kool Moe Dee all of them.
Right, right I was down
the block from them with the Fearless Four, and Keith Sweat coming out
of my projects.
Right, right. I knew Keith when he was
working at Dave’s Computer store. I remember him hustling a little
weed back then.
Yeah he had his little
hustles, I remember him shooting dice back in the days with the fellas, also working on Wall Street.
You right from the
dice to Wall Street. But nobody made money like Tito!
Right Tito use to come
through the block with a van and the sliding door open and a big ass
speaker-blasting hip hop.
Right and we all were cool with each other.
But Alison Williams mother left the Sober up Station after awhile and so
Alison Williams stayed with her Aunt that lived up on the hill by Moe
Dee and them. And that was how I met her for that summer.
In 1997 I did another deal with Tommy Boy. We went to Memphis to
record. At this time I was really on some Blues s---!
I did the album in New York but the A&R man said you got
something here but I don’t know what to call it, its music but it
isn’t hip hop, so what are we going to do with it? So Tom Silverman
who was also a musician in his time said it
sounds like some Blues s---.
I didn’t know that
about Silverman.
Yeah he was a musician in fact that is how
we met.
Dam, so how many labels
have you ran with in total?
I knew everybody man.
(Troy starts laughing.)
You is a funny brother!
Player let me tell you something; no for
real I got nominated for two grammys. I know everybody in this game. But
I am going to be straight with you my mother was dieing literally. Up in
till that time for the last four years I had been running around the
world. From 87 to 91. In 92 I was in Japan and south East Asia. Just
before my mother started to really feel sick I was on the verge of doing
another album with Def Jam when she was diagnosed with cancer and given
a certain amount of time.
My mother said before she dies she
wanted to live in different places. I couldn’t very well do that and
run around with this music s---. So I told Russell “we done well but
you owe me some money pay me.” I have to take care of my mother. I
went into my bank account and we traveled all over me, her, my fiancé
and my kids, and we just lived were ever she wanted to go.
That’s beautiful to be
able to take care of your momma and have the resources to do it.
Yeah man and I
mean I went broke doing it but I wouldn’t have had it any other way.
Nah kid you love your
momma; I love and miss my momma also.
I miss her man. She was born and raised
here in Houston and I guess that is why I am living here today. Russell
loved his mother and I know he wished he could have spent more time with
her, but I couldn’t handle that you know what I am saying. I needed to
do what I had to do with her then. So something had to go.
So that is where your
career went it just shout down!
Yeah that is were the career went, I
didn’t get run out. See actually when I stepped off everything was
cool. I could have done me first and done them later but like I said my
mother was already on the clock. It just comes down to you as a person,
there is no right or wrong, the decision is just what would you do if
you were force to be faced with that. So that’s how that went down.
But today I am working on another album. A couple cats have talked to me
like Universal and Def Jam. There is a bunch of distributors that have
offered me money up front. So we will see what happens.
So that is how you are
maintaining by doing some singing here and there?
No actually I was
running back and forth to New York helping cats with arrangements.
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